Makedonien ein eigener Staat

[Quintus Fabius]

Nach Menschrechtsorganisationen gibt es 40% albaner 15%Roma

Ich war selber dort und 40% Albaner ist deutlich zuviel, so viele sind es nicht.

Im übrigen mal eine ganz andere Sache: in Griechenland leben auch Albaner und wie die Albaner im Kosovo und in Mazedonien wollen sie ebenso die Abtretung Griechischer Gebiete an Groß-Albanien oder einen eigenen Staat.

Es ist gerade als Grieche daher nicht sehr klug, die albaner auch noch in ihren Bestrebungen zu bestärken nur weil es scheinbar den „bösen“ Nachbarn Mazedonien trifft.

Nur allzu schnell geht der gleiche Scheiß nämlich dann in Griechenland los, eher sollten Griechen und Mazedonier zusammen halten.

[Quintus Fabius]

Hab ich doch gerade von einem Albaner gehört, dass die ganzen Arvaniten in Griechenland über 2 Millionen sind und daher Griechenland mal besser schleunigst Gebiete hergeben sollte. Außerdem seien die Antiken Makedonen natürlich Albaner ....

Im übrigen noch mal zur Frage der Mazedonischen Sprache:

Mazedonisch ist NICHT Bulgarisch ! beide sind nur miteinander verwandt. Der Grund dafür ist, dass das Frühere Bulgarische eine Turksprache war, mit der Bekehrung zum Christentum übernahmen die Bulgaren das Altkirchenslawische und dieses stammt von den Slawen in Makedonien her, es ist also so, dass die Bulgarische Sprache deshalb mit dem Slawischen Mazedonisch so eng verwandt ist, weil sie von ihr abstammt bzw mit ihr gemeinsame Wurzeln hat.

Die Slawischen Mazedonier stammen folglich auch nicht allein von den Bulgaren ab, sondern enstanden aus einer Vermischung von Griechen, Slawen und Bulgaren.

Die Mazedonische Sprache gibt es daher schon deutlich länger als Tito und das sie erst 1944 als Hochsprache festgelegt wurde ändert daran nichts.

Früher gab es in Deutschland auch keine Hochsprache, sondern nur die jeweiligen Stammesdialekte, wir wissen daher klar das es zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt noch kein allgemeines Deutsch gab, so ähnlich ist dies hier.

Ethnisch wiederum sind die Slawischen Mazedonier ungeachtet ihrer Sprache ein Slawisch – Griechisches Mischvolk und daher eben Auch neben den Griechen die Nachfahren der Antiken Makedonen. Die Ethnische Abstammung ist aber völlig nachrangig der heutigen Existenz.

Und heute existiert ein Mazedonisches Volk das definitiv von Bulgaren unterscheidbar ist und eine eigene Sprache hat ebenso wie ein eigenes Volksbewusstsein. Das dieses Volksbewusstsein ebenso wie die Nationale Identität erst 200 Jahre alt ist, ist egal.

Irgendwann früher gab es auch keine Griechen wenn man nur lange genug zurück geht. Die Slawischen Vorfahren der Mazedonier lebten zudem seit dem 6 Jahrhundert nach Christus in dieser Region und das Volk der Mazedonier entstand eben an der Bruchlinie von Griechen zu Slawen.

Hier noch etwas zur Griechischen Position:

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Fakt ist: das die Griechen die Wahrheit leugnen, nämlich das es ein Mazedonisches Volk gibt und dieses so heißt. Und das Griechenland in seinem Staatsgebiet die Mazedonier durch Zwang und Lager und Vertreibungen von 30% der Bevölkerung in Makedonien auf unter 2% reduziert hat.

In Folge dieser griechischen Handlungen ist es natürlich verständlich das die Griechen heute die Mazedonier leugnen müssen, den sonst würden sie ja zugleich ihre Schuld einräumen die sie haben.

[merco]

Mazedonische Flüchtlinge wollen Griechenland verklagen


Hunderttausende Menschen wurden während des Bürgerkrieges, der von 1946 bis 1949 dauerte, vertrieben. Allein 28.000 Kinder waren darunter. Die Flüchtlingskinder aus dem Ägäischen Mazedonien wurden in fünf osteuropäischen Ländern aufgenommen.

99% aller Makedonier kämpften 1948 auf der Seite der Kommunistischen Bewegung in Griechenland, weil diese Leute eine makedonischfreundliche Politik betrieben. Sie versprachen, daß allen Nationalitäten Menschenrechte gewährt werden, so wie z.b. in Titos Jugoslawien der Fall war. Auf der anderen Seite standen die griechischen Faschisten, die Ex-Nazis und Nazikolabeuratere, die von den Engländern an die Macht zurückgebracht wurden


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Es gab keine Verschleppung von Kindern, es gab Rettung von Weisenkindern und anderen Kindern aus den makedonischen Dörfern, die ständig mit NAPALM von den Englädern und amerikanischen Flugzeugen bombardiert wurden. Die Kinder wurden vom sicheren Tod gerettet indem sie nach Makedonien, Jugoslawien, Polen, Russland gebracht wurden. Mit den Kindern gingen meistens auch ihre Mütter mit, während die Väter kämpften. Die meisten sind dann auf in den Gebirgen von Gramos während der Bombardierungen mit NAPALM umgekommen. Das war übrigens der erste historische Moment wo Napalm benutzt wurde. Andere wurden danach während der Säuberungsaktionen in Ägäis-Makedonien durch die königstreue Truppen gefangengenommen, exekutiert und vertrieben.

--------------------------------------------------
Slavomazedoner = Falsch
Mazedoner = Richtig

[soferaki]

Naja, merco ich weiß ja nicht wie Du nach deinen Überzeugungen lebst. Es gibt halt Sachen, die kann man beeinflussen und andere nicht.

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[ChrisCRTS]

Die Slawen siedelten in erheblichen Umfang in Griechenland, bis nach Südgriechenland hinein.

Das hattest du schon mal gesagt. Ist falsch.
Ja, die Slawen hatten Großere teile des balkans, und des gebiets Nord Makedoniens, besiedelt aber nicht bis nach Südgriechenland. Nicht vergessen die galten damals als "invasoren" und byzanz hatte mehrere kriege gegen ihnen geführt.
Bestimmt hatten, trotzdem, einige von ihnen bis nach Südgriechanland gekommen aber nicht in zahlen das jemand über "50% Slawisches blut" sprechen kann.
Waren die schlawen in so große zahl vertreten dann gebe es spuren.
In unsere sprache, namensgebung etc gibs nichts schlawisches!
Als gegenbeispiel gibs viele turkische/turkischabstamende worte und namen!

Das gleiche auch mit die Albaner nur das bei denn mehrere hundert tausende in Griechenland als arbeiter gekomen sind.

Die in Vardar lebenden Slawen nannten sich aber schon vor Tito Mazedonier, schon vor dem Zweiten Weltkrieg !

Briefmarke von 1939.
"Vardarscka"
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Grenze von 1929
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Die sind Schlawen die in ein gebiet leben die Früher Makedonien hießt. Genau gesagt in gebiete die durch Phillip erobert wurden. Genau so wie viele millionen menschen die in Alexanders riesiege Makedonien leben. (Sind die auch "Makedonen"?)
Sonst haben die nichts mit Makedonien zu tun. Weder sprachlich noch kulturel noch historisch.

[LORDanonymous]

Ich traue meinen augen nicht...
soll Ich wieder jeden moechte gern mazedonen...wiederlegen...und wiederufen...?

1.Fakt ist uns Griechen seit Ihr total egal..(ob Ihr es in der zukunft schafft oder nicht eueren Staat zu behalten...oder ihn ein Gross-Albanien-Gross Bulgarien eingegliedert zu werden...ist unser traum...Ja du liest richtig...und ich bin aufrichtig mit euch...(nicht dyplomatisch...EHRLICH)
Ich hoffe von ganzem herzen..das die Albaner oder Bulgaren...euch endlich asimmiliren...
2.Fakt ist...euer sogenanntes "Mazedonisch " ist ein misch masch aus Serbisch-Bulgarisch...(komisch das euch jeder Bulgare auf anhieb verstehen kann...nicht?)
nach 49 (griechischer Buergerkrieg) weisst du wie viele Kommunisten in eure region gefluechtet sind...?
Du denkst du bist "Mazedone"? und aus Monastiri (Bitola)...na dann frag deinen Opa...der weiss es besser warscheinlich...
3.Fakt ist...Ihr werdet Nie ihn die NATO-EU eintreten solang Griechenland sich durch euch gestoert fuehlt...(Ihr macht zu viel laehrm fuer eure groesse...lol)
4.Ein grosser anteil(groesster investor) eurer finanzen ist /wird durch Griechen gefuert...
5.Solange Ihr abhaengig von Thessaloniki Harbor seit...solltet ihr euch friedlich und besonnen verhalten..(den die naechsten wahlen in greece kommen...und es wird eine sehr sehr rechte partei ihren vorschein machen...die mit euch klar wind machen will...) dat heisst auf jut slavisch....NEMA PORTO...nema Mazedonya...Welcome Vardarska oder sonnst wie...
6.Ihr wollt fuer euer eigen alles haben was mit geschichte zu tun hatt...
wieso habt ihr ansonsten euren Flughafen ....Grosser Alexander benannt?
aus christlicher naechsten liebe...?spare me...
Eure buecher (Schulen) sind voll...von Tito propaganda...gegen Greece...
Und streben nach der Mazedonischen Aegeas...wet dreams eines zwerges...
Nun eilt zur UN...um ne loesung zu finden...da wird das a@#$kriechen US- Bush- euch auch nicht fuer lange helfen...


@Quintus
Dein beispiel mit Karl...ist nicht zutreffend...auf Makedonien
Ich gebe Dir gerne beispiele die innerhalb des EU rates schon besprochen wurden ...und griechenland 100% recht gegeben wurde....durch George Karatzaferis

Als United Kingdom wurde England in die EU aufgenommen...Und nicht als Britain...
Grund...
De gol...hatte einspruch...da es die franzoesische Britanie gab...
und schliesslich gewann frankreich dieses recht...
wieso sollen wir den cultuvirten Europaer raushaengen lassen mit ihnen..?

es folgen auf anhieb...links/pics/usw...wenn hier weiter gegen griechenland...propagandiert wird...und griechische hoheits gebiete...wie auch griechisches kulturgut....angegriffen wird...

Um nicht noch mal das selbe und selbe schreiben zu muessen...
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vorletzte und letzte seite...hoechst interessant///
Ein bild 1000 words...sagt eine redensweise...
Hier die doch so "musterhaften" nord nachbarn...die von uns boesen griechen doch so schikaniert werden...
Mann beachte die karte in den haenden der....vardarska-slaven(wanna be macedonian)...sie beinhalten auch Thessaloniki und fast ganz Nord-griechenland)

[Bild: http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/...373338.jpg]

ps.Wie leicht doch einige alte respektierte members hier...dass verteilen was ihnen nicht gehoert(geographie-History-Kultur usw)...komisch nicht?

[merco]

Der name Makedonien ist nur ein Griechisches problem, sogar ein Identitäts problem.Der grund ist der das sich Griechenland nicht mit den namen Makedonien/Mazedonien identifizieren kann.Geschichtlich wird sogar bis in die Antike zurückgegriffen ,das aber absurt und lächerlich ist.


Die Regierung Mazedoniens.

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Liebe Moderatoren endschuldigt die grösse des bildes ...

[LORDanonymous]

Die regierung...?
Und..ansonsten gehts uns gut...?
wer fragt nach eurer regierung...?


Schreiben wir einfach die geschichte NEU...?
Kann man Geschichte NEU schreiben oder neu verfassen...?

Wenns uns eben nicht passt....

kreiren wir...Mischungen...von astrologischen ausmassen...
"wie alle griechen sind sowieso slawen"...und sonstiegen spaessen die keiner beweisen kann...
Kein einziger stein/gebaute in der region FYROM...vom altertum-mittelalter...ist auf slawish-Bulgarisch...KEIN EINZIGER...(obwohl ihr auch das nicht verstehen koennt)
alles auf griechisch...oder latainisch(ROEMISCH)
Aber das eben die griechen im aufstand gegen die Osmanen einen freien griechischen staat wollten...und keinen slawisch-arumenisch-bulgarisch-marsianischen...mischmasch...
geht woll jedem un-historischem...unwissendem...am allerwertesten vorbei...?
Das Ihr erts um 1000 NACH christi...Als Slawen in der Region auftaucht...ist wohl auch unbedeutend...?
ansonten...
Ja es gibt wohl Makedonier in eurem gebiet...
Die allerdings sind griechische ex-kommunisten...von 49...
ansonten....
Bulgaren-Albaner-Serben...Roma...Tuerken...END OF THE STORY
Und die wiederum mit ihren augen auf Solun (Thessaloniki) lachzend schielen...
aber euer "do somun...so solun...motto" (drei tage brotmarsch auf salonika um es einzunehmen) koennt ihr vergessen...
wie auch jeder andere ...moechte gern indianer auf dem Balkan...

werdet endlich Europaer...



[Bild: http://www.feuerwehr-buxtehude.de/bilder...dianer.jpg]

Indianer versammlung...die behauptet auch soehne Alexanders des grossen zu sein...

[LORDanonymous]

Da manche hier anwesende Geschichts untericht brauchen...

ok...

Here you go...

Ancient Macedonia

What were the borders of ancient Macedonia?
When did the first Hellenic tribes reside in the area later called by them Macedonia?
What is the meaning of the word 'Macedon'? References.
The Macedonian state until the end of the 6th century BC.
What were the relations of Macedonia with the other two Greek Kingdoms of Thessaly and Epirus?
What were the relations between the Macedonians and the Illyrians?
What was the Macedonian form of government?
What did ancient Greek writers write about Macedonia?
"Hellas" and "Macedonia". When was the first time that the word Hellas was used to describe the country
inhabited by people belonging to Hellenic (Greek) tribes?
Was the Macedonian tongue a Greek dialect or not?
"ANEBOA MAKEDONISTI" ?
There is a reference in a work by Pausanias that may give the impression that Macedonians, around 214-213BC,
were speaking a non-Greek language.
Did Demosthenes believe the Macedonians were barbarians?
Is there any reference by Demosthenes to an incident that can lead us to conclude that he and his fellow Athenians believed that Macedonians
indeed spoke a Greek dialect?
Is it possible [ignoring historic evidence that shows that this was not the case] that Macedonians had spoken a
non-Greek language before 340BC and within a 10-20 year period every Macedonian was fluent in the attic dialect?
Who may have 'Hellenized' ancient Macedonians, if we assume, despite proof for the contrary, that they were
not a Greek tribe ?
Isocrates used the phrases "ALOFYLON TO GENOS", "OYX OMOFYLOY GENOYS". Do they mean "of other tribe"
or "of other race"?


Medieval & Modern Macedonia
Skopjans accuse us Macedonians in Greece of changing the names of our cities into Greek ones some time
in the 20th century instead of using
the Slavic names assigned to these cities since "ancient" (sic) names. They claim that Edessa for example
should not be called so but VODEN
instead, and Thessaloniki should be called SOLUN.
Skopjans claim that when Slavs descended to the Balkan peninsula, in the 7th century AD, Macedonians
vanished and there was a kind of
'Slavicization' of Macedonia which 'gave birth' to the "Slavic-Macedonians" as Skopjans claim they are
(at least some of them), the supposedly
deserved ancestors of ancient Macedonians. Are such claims true say up to 15th century AD?
Do the Skopjans have desires on Macedonia, Greece?
When did 'Macedonians' of the Skopjan type first appear?
What was the population distribution of Macedonia, the Republic of Skopje, and parts of Bulgaria in the
years of Ottoman rule?
What is the nationality of the Vlachs?
Skopjans claim that Greeks can only choose Greek names for their children
Was the Bulgarian King Samuel of Skopjan nationality as some Skopjans claimed he was?
What is the size of the Greek minority in the Republic of Skopje.
Macedonia and the (Greek) War of Independence.
When was the first time the word "Macedonia" was defined to include lands of the nowadays Rep. of Skopje?
What were the views of the Bulgarian Exarchate on the population composition of Macedonia.
Did all the Greeks in Macedonia speak Greek only in the late 19th century?
What were the events that followed the Berlin Congress of 1878?
The Neuilly treaty of 1920.
Communism and Macedonia
Bulgaria and Germany in World War II.
What are the intentions of the Communists still ruling Skopje towards the region of modern-day Greece
called Macedonia since ancient times?
Skopjan claims on Greece (continued).
Why Skopjans use the term "Aegean Macedonia"
What do some Skopjans claim that the population composition of Macedonia is?
Bulgarian statements on Skopje in the late fifties [after the Tito-Stalin breakup].
Skopjan minority claims.
Are there any Slavs living in Greece? When the last few Slavs left Greece? Are there any Slavophone living in Greece?
Where are they living? Who are they?
A brief history of the Bulgarian-origin terrorist group IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization )
founded one hundred years ago (1893

Q1) What were the borders of ancient Macedonia?
Thucydides (II 99) defined ancient Macedonia as the area extending to the east as far as the lands of mountain Paggaion, east of river Strymon,
to the south to the Thermaikos Bay, Chalcidice, river Pineios (the border with Thessaly) and the Kambounia mountains, to the north up to
(including) the city of Pella, south of the lands of Paeonians, and to the west to the mountains (Pindos, Tymfe etc) that separate Macedonia from Epeiros and ancient Illyria (today's Albania).

Macedonia, as defined by Thucydides, coincides with the region of Macedonia of modern Greece minus some lands of the Chalcidice prefecture.

In later dates the borders of the Macedonian State (that is, the lands ruled by the Macedonian Kings) varied and depending on the circumstances it extended westwards up to the Adriatic Sea, eastwards up to river Evros and beyond, and to the north up to the city of Lychnidon between the lakes
of Brygies and Lyhnetis [the translation of some Greek names into English may seem weird. Blame me for this.]. References pointing to the borders
of the Macedonian state can be found in Strabo, VII.

The terms Macedonia and Macedonian State may seem analogous to the terms Great Britain and British Empire.


Q2) When did the first Hellenic tribes reside in the area later called by them Macedonia?
The first Hellenic tribes of Dorians and Achaeoi resided in Macedonia in prehistoric times, first in Emathia near mountain Vermion and later expanded northwards and eastwards to cover the lands outlined in Question 1. Herodotus mentioned that around the 9th century BC the Macedonian State had the city of Aegae as its capital and that either Caranos or Perdikkas was considered the founder of the Macedonian dynasty.

[ Note: The ancient royal city of Aegae is located in modern day Vergine in the Emathia prefecture of Greece. Excavations which began in 1976 by the late Professor Manolis Andronikos revealed that the site of the city was indeed located near Vergina and not near Edessa as many archaeologists, Professor Andronikos included, previously believed. It was Professor N. G. L. Hammond who in 1968 first suggested that Vergina was the place to look for Aegae, a belief peculiar even to himself at that time. The first royal tombs in Vergina were excavated in 1976-1977 and one of them is believed to belong to Philippos II, father of Alexander the Great. ]

According to Herodotus, the Makednoi (Macedonians) who crossed Doris and moved to Peloponnesos were later called Dorians. Since the term Dorians is much more well known than the term Makednoi we shall also use it to identify the latter people in the discussion to follow.

The Dorians who formed the Macedonian state came in contact with the local Pelasgic population whose size was much smaller than the one residing at the sea shores and the islands of Southern Greece. It is for this reason that German Historian K. Belloch considered the Macedonians the purest Greeks of any other part of Greece (Gr. Geschichte, I, 1a, p92). The Dorians(Makednoi) of Macedonia were larger in number than those who moved southwards. This is because those who moved southwards were reduced in number either due to attrition or to settlements in the areas they visited along their movement to Southern Greece.

Such a place of permanent residence for some Makednoi(Dorians) was Doris. When these Dorians (known until then as Makednoi only) moved to Peloponnesos they became known there as Dorians (that is, the people [coming] from Doris).


Q3)What is the meaning of the word 'Macedon'? References.
The word Macedon (Gk: Makedvn) is very likely to come from the Greek word 'makednos' first mentioned in Homer's Odyssey (Od. H106), and later by Herodotus, who called 'Makednon eunos' the various Doric tribes among which he included the Macedonians (Her. I.56, VIII.43).

[LORDanonymous]

Wer mit Pandoras Box spielt sollte bereit sein...
ich muss und darf hier alles on topic einsetzen..(da es zu dem oben gennanten keinen link gibt...)

The word 'Makednos' has the meaning of long, tall, and highlander. Some archaeologists believe that the Macedonians were called so because they were tall. Nowadays the meaning of 'highlander' is more prevalent. This is because Macedonians used to live early in prehistoric times in the mountains of Vermio in Greece.

The Greek words Macetia (Gk: MAKETIA) and Macetae (Gk: MAKETAI) were also used in early times to identify Macedonia and the Macedonians.

The biblical Hettieim or Kitim and Kitiaioi originate from Maketia and Maketai.

Hesiod in Theogonia, written in the middles of 8th century BC, claimed that Makednos and Magnes who used to live in the lands around mountain Olympus and Pieria were sons of Zeus and Thyias, daughter of Deukalion. This suggests that the other Greeks of that time believed that the Macedonians and Magnetes belonged to the same tribe (a Hellenic one).

Hellanikos, who lived at the time of Herodotus, considered Macedon son of Aeolos. Apollodoros considered Macedon son of Lykaon and thus grandson of the king of Argos Pelasgos and Lykaon king of Arcadians whose 50 sons became leaders of various greek tribes. On the other hand Aelianos considered Lykaon, King of Emathia and Pindos, son of Macedon.

Aeschylus, in Iketidai, had the king of Argos Pelasgos boasting that his family was ruling the lands beyond Pindos and Dodoni up to river Strymon (that is including Macedonia, the one part of modern day Greece).


Q4) The Macedonian state until the end of the 6th century BC.
The Macedonians until the 6th century BC lived isolated from the other Greeks a pastoral life known as transhumant pastoralism moving their herds to the mountain pastures in the spring and to the lowland pastures in the winter (see N. G. L. Hammond).

Their language was affected by the way of their life and was not as linguistically developed as that of Athens. Macedonians built their houses on hilltop and well-protected areas and retained the lifestyle of the original Dorians possibly emphasized by the need of intermittent wars needed to preserve their own existence.

A German historian and linguist, O. Hoffmann, considered Macedonians a greek tribe that first lived in the mountains of Pindos then moved towards the lands of river Haliakmon and in some unknown time towards the valley of river Axios.

The first contact between the Macedonians and other Greeks (those of Chalcidice) occurred at the end of the 6th century BC when Amyntas I, father of Alexander I, conquered Anthemounta in Chalcidice. This contact terminates the isolationism of the Macedonian State and signifies a new era of participation in the events taking place in the Hellenic world by forging alliances with various city-states, becoming an enemy of other ones, and switching sides, as fit to the interests of the State.

There are some people who advocate the thesis that the Macedonians were not Greek. An English archaeologist, St. Casson, observed that it was difficult to give a definition of what could be considered 'Hellenic'. If one, according to him, included in such a definition everything found north or south of the Corinth's bay (in Peloponnesos, Southern Greece) between the 10th and 8th century BC, then Macedonia should be considered greek. The people, according to Casson, living in Macedonia were using the same jewels with those living in Sparta, Olympia, Delphi, Aegina, and Argos. This at least proves the close relations of the people living in these areas in the first centuries of the 1st millennium BC.

The recent excavations in Vergina confirm the conclusions of Casson for the remaining centuries.


Q5) What were the relations of Macedonia with the other two Greek Kingdoms of Thessaly and Epeiros?
Epeiros, Macedonia and Thessaly were all inhabited by Greek tribes. Epeiros, Macedonia and Thessaly had more in common than any other Greek state. All three were kingdoms [monarchies], a form of government highly disliked by the Greeks in the South [Sparta being a sole exception had two kings]. For Epeiros and Macedonia monarchy was the result of the pastoral life which forced people to live in areas surrounded by mountains and be isolated from the other Greeks.

Despite references by Thucydides that the Epeirotians were not Greek, excavations in Epeiros in the 1950s proved such claims of Thucydides to be totally untrue, since it can now be proved that Molossians, Athamanians, Chaones and Thesprotians and other people living in Epeiros [known collectively as Epeirotians] were Greek, speaking Greek and writing in Greek throughout the lifetime of Thucydides and even before that according to the archaeological evidence found so far.

Ancient Greeks (Iliad P.234) believed that Dodoni in Epeiros was the center of the Hellenic world and that the names Hellas and Hellenes were first given to the people of Epeiros also called Graecoi, the root of the English word 'Greek'. For more details we refer to Aristotle's Meteorologica 352a, 34.

Macedonians were in close contacts with both the Thessalians and the Epeirotians. Marriages among the members of the royal families of the three kingdoms were common. Olympias, mother of Alexander the Great, was a Molossian princess. Molossians believed that the founder of their tribe was Neoptolemos son of Homeric Achilles. Macedonians and Epeirotians were many times allies in wars against their common enemy, the Illyrians. Diodoros (XV 13) mentioned that in a single battle following an Illyrian invasion of Macedonia 15,000 Epeirotians were killed, a quite high number, by the Greek standards of that time.


Q6) What were the relations between the Macedonians and the Illyrians?
The Illyrians were Indo-Europeans and used to live in nowadays Albania and the western-northwestern part of the Republic of Skopje. They were not a greek tribe. Nowadays Albanians can be considered descendants of the ancient Illyrians although many other people lived in Illyria in various times (such as Greeks, Latins, Germans, Slavs, and Turks). The modern Albanian language seems to have greek elements but these elements were most probably introduced in the older Illyrian language during the Hellenistic and roman periods and later, in the Byzantine times, when Illyrians appeared to be speaking Greek.

Various authors have supported the thesis that Illyrians and Macedonians belonged to the same (non-greek) tribe and spoke the same (non-greek) language. Given that it has been proved beyond any reasonable doubt (see following questions) that the language spoken by ancient Macedonians was a greek dialect such claims are not true. An ancient writer Polyvios (XXVII 8,9) wrote that Macedonians were using translators in their contacts with the Illyrians, which implies that they were not speaking the same language.

Illyrians used to live up to the Hellenistic and roman years a primitive life raiding neighboring areas. Raids by Illyrians, whenever they were able to cross the mountain passes, in Macedonia and Epeiros were frequent [See also Question 5]. In the early 4th century BC, when the succession to the Macedonian throne was problematic Illyrians invaded Macedonia and occupied most of the lands of the Macedonian State. They were driven out of the State only with the combined efforts of Macedonians, Epeirotians, Thessalians and the settlers of Chalcidici.


Q7)What was the Macedonian form of government?
It was mentioned in a previous question that the Macedonian State was a kingdom. The form of government reminded that found in Iliad and Odyssey. The rule of the Macedonian king was not absolute and his 'hetairoi', as the Macedonian soldiers were called, were consulting the king sometimes quite vociferously. It was not uncommon even for Alexander the Great to have to convince his Macedonian soldiers for his future actions and to request their approval. The institution of 'hetairoi' had its roots in Homer (Iliad D 204, 532, E 663, Z 170,260) where the Myrmidon soldiers of Achilles were called so.


Q8) What did ancient Greek writers write about Macedonia?
Aeschylus (Iketidai, 250) and Herodotus (V 22) believed that Macedonians were Dorian Greeks. Herodotus claimed that the Macedonians (called at that time Makednoi) who moved to Peloponnesos from Doris were later called Dorians.

[The English translation of the works by Herodotus we use is due to A. D. Godley and published by Harvard University Press in the US, and Willian Heineman Ltd in Great Britain as part of the Loeb Classical Library]

In Herodotus Book I, 56 (page 53) it is mentioned

"These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second an Hellenic people. The Pelasgian stock has never yet left its habitation, the Hellenic has wandered often and afar. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then in the time of Dorus son of Hellen the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus; driven by the Cadmeans from this Histiaean country it settled about Pindus in the parts called Macednian; thence again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia to Peloponnesos, where it took the name of Dorian".

Elsewhere, VIII-43 (referring to the naval battle in Salamis) Herodotus wrote

"The Peloponnesians that were with the fleet were, firstly, the Lacedaemonians, with sixteen ships, and the Corinthians with the same number of ships as at Atemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezinians five, the people of Hermione three; all these, except the people of Hermione were of Dorian and Macedonian stock, and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The people of Hermione are Dryopians, driven by Hercules and the Malians from the country now called Doris.".

In another passage Herodotus described how the Macedonian state had been founded (VIII,136-138).

There is one passage in Thucydides that descries the Molossians and other Epeirotian tribes among the 'barbarians'. It was proved following the excavations in Epeiros in 1950-1960 that the Molossians and other Epeirotian tribes were Greek, speaking Greek, and writing in Greek well before Thucydides' time. Thus Thucydides was wrong for these tribes. He was also wrong if he claimed, as some translators allege, that Macedonians had not been a greek tribe. Thucydides had also accused the Eurytanes, another Greek tribe, of being barbarians for their bad and improper use of the greek language and their aboriginal customs. The misinterpreted passage of Thucydides is given below. In Thucydides IV,124,1 (Loeb edition by C.F. Smith) the following passage appeared. "The total Hellenic force was about three thousand; the cavalry that went with them, Macedonians and Chalcidians, were all told a little less than one thousand, and there was besides a great multitude of barbarians".

[In Gk: "MAKEDONVN JYN XALKIDEYSIN OLIGVN ES XILIOYS, KAI ALLOS OMILOS TVN BARBARVN POLYS"]

This passage is sometimes misinterpreted so that Macedonians and Chalcidians for that matter appear to be considered barbarians by Thucydides. That this is not so can follow from an analysis of this passage. First, no one ever considered the Chalcidians, whose number is added to that of Macedonians, barbarians. Second, Thucydides distinguishes Macedonians and Chalcidians on the one hand and barbarians on the other by using the adjective few (Gk: OLIGVN) for the former and many for the latter (GkOLY). These two adjective clearly indicate a contradistinction.

Euripides lived many years and died in Macedonia. Many of his tragedies were written and played while he was in Macedonia. This would have been impossible, had the Macedonians been 'barbarians' (non-Greek). This is because in one of these tragedies, 'Iphigeneia in Aulis', the Greek superiority over the barbarians is emphasized. The following epigram in memory of Euripides which is attributed by some authors to Thucydides may give us more light to the actual beliefs of the people of that time (and possibly Thucydides)

"MNHMA MEN ELLAS APAS' EYRIPIDOU, OSTEA D' ISXEI GH MAKEDVN, H GAR DEJATO TERMA BIOU".

In brief, Macedonia, the land that holds the bones of Euripides is considered part of Greece.

Polyvios (VII 11,4, V 103,9, XVIII, XXXiV 7,13 , VII 9,1 IX 37,7) clearly stated his belief that Macedonia was greek, part of Greece, and considered Achaeans and Macedonians of the same race. The same beliefs were shared by Strabo as well as Titus Livius, to name a few other writers. It is also interesting to note that Polyvios describing the Balkan Peninsula he says that it includes Greece, Illyria and Thrace. One can thus deduce that he includes Macedonia in Greece. Had he not done so, he could have listed her separately.

Plutarchos(Flam. XI) describes Titus Contus Flamininus during the Isthmia celebrations claimed that Macedonia prevented barbarian attacks against Southern Greece.

Arrhianos' work is full of references to "Macedonia and the other Greece".


Q9) "Hellas" and "Macedonia". When was the first time that the word Hellas was used to describe the country inhabited by people belonging to Hellenic (greek) tribes?
Although the words Hellas and Hellen (and the other two English equivalents Greece and Greek) have been used to describe the country and the people of modern day Greece, their use in ancient times differed in various periods of time.

The usage of these words to describe the various Hellenic tribes as a whole was unknown to the people of the Homeric poems. In Iliad, the words Hellen (Gk: ELLHN) and Hellas (Gk: ELLAS) defined a small greek tribe and the land inhabited by them in Thessaly. (Iliad B' 683)

"OI T' EIXON FUIHN HD' ELLADA KALLIGYNAIKA, MYRMIDONES DE KALEYNTO KAI ELLHNES KAI AXAIOI".
At some earlier line (B' 530) there is a reference to the word "PANELLHNVN". This word since the time of Aristarchos has been considered to be absent in the original poem and was added at some later time.

Plutarchos (Lykourgos 6) wrote about the message brought from Delphoi to Sparta by Lykourgos "DIOS (S)ELLANIOU KAI AUHNAS (S)ELLANIAS IERON IDRYSAMENON...". Because of this reference, it is believed that the words "Hellas" and "Hellen" became more widely used after the dispersion of the Dorians. It is also possible that they were sacred words possibly related to the (S)elles priests of the Dodonian Zeus.

[the parenthesized (S) is to mean that the S say in the word SELLANIOY was later dropped from use thus giving ELLANIOY.]

The words Hellas and Hellen became more widely used some time in the 8-7th century BC and in the 5th century BC we find the first references of them to describe the lands and the Greek people living south of river Peneios. In the 4th century BC and later they were also used to describe the various Hellenic (greek) tribes as a whole. The passage from Herodotus (I,56), mentioned in a previous Question indicated another use of these words, that of distinguishing Ionian Greeks from Dorian Greek.

Since the Macedonians were pretty much isolated from the Greeks of Southern Greece up to the early 5th century BC, the words 'Hellas' and 'Hellen' were not used by them to describe collectively the lands of various Hellenic tribes, as this was also true for all the other greek tribes until the 8-7th century BC.

Hence when the Macedonians initiated contacts with other Greek tribes they continued to use the word 'Macedonian' to describe themselves instead of the collective 'Hellen(es)'. This is the reason various authors (such as Isocrates, Philippos 154) use the term "Hellenes" and "Macedonians" on the one hand and 'barbarians" on the other to distinguish the greek tribes (of Macedonians and other Hellenes) from the non-greek ones (barbarians).

The intellectual Athenians of the 4th century gave yet another definition for the word "Hellen" (Isocrates, Panegyrikos 50), that of the person having an Athenian educational background, "... the name 'Hellenes' suggests no longer the people but an intelligence, and that the title 'Hellenes' is applied rather to those who share our [note: the 'our' refers to the Athenians] culture than to those who share a common blood".

It is also believed (N.G.L. Hammond,page 6) that the distinction made by authors of Macedonians and Hellenes differentiates only the descendants of Hellen from the descendants of Thyia, as in the genealogy provided by Hesiod. According to Hesiod, Deucalion had a son Hellen and a daughter Thyia. The ancestors of Hellen were Dorus, Xouthus (whose son was Ion) and Aeolus. Thyia had two sons Magnes and Macedon. According to Hellanikos on the other hand, Macedon was a son of Aeolus.


Q10) Was the Macedonian tongue a greek dialect or not?
Yes it was a greek (Doric) dialect.

We shall break this discussion into two parts. The first one consists of evidence found prior to the excavations in Vergina by the late Professor Manolis Andronikos. The second one consists of evidence found mainly since then. This evidence leads beyond any doubt to the conclusion that the Macedonians spoke a greek dialect which was basically a Doric one, it borrowed words and was influenced by the Aeolic dialect spoken by the Thessalians neighbors of Macedonians, and also borrowed few words of Phrygic and Illyrian origin.

The Thessalians (Aeolic) influence convinced some researchers that the genealogy of Makedon given by Hellanikos (see Question 3) was more accurate than that given by Hesiodos.

In the volume "Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek history and civilization" Professor M. Sakellariou examined the words known to be unique in the Macedonian dialect of greek and related their root to the roots of words of other Greek dialects. Summarizing, many of the words that were previously considered of non-Greek origin were also in (rare) use in other parts of Greece.

There have been made various claims that the Macedonians up to some time in the 4th century BC used to speak a non-Greek language and at that time (around 340BC) were 'hellenized' by the Athenians and thus learned how to speak the attic dialect. These claims can be easily proved to be totally false even if one uses only pre-Vergina evidence.

Below we present various views on the topic.

Pre-Vergina evidence.
Fr. Sturz (in "De Dialecto Macedonica et Alexandrina", 1808) concluded that the Macedonian tongue was a greek Doric dialect. August Flick, O. Hoffmann, Otto Abel, and Karl Belloch, as well as George Busolt, Fritz Geyer, Ulrich Wilcken, Helmuth Berve, Gustave Glotz, P. Roussel, P Pouquet, A Jarde, R Cohen, J. Bury, St. Casson, W. Heurtley, D. Hogarth, J. de Waele, just to name a few (non-Greek) historians and archaeologists, shared the same views.

On the other hand, there were some historians and writers such as M. Vasmer (Revue du ministere d' instruction publique de Russie, 1908), P Kretschmer and Bulgarians G. Kazarow and Vlad. Georgiev that rejected this thesis. Georgiev attempted to show that Macedonians were member of a Thracoillyrian nation thus speaking Illyrian, a non-greek language. That this was not the case was shown in Question 6. G Weigand also shared the opinions of these authors. G. Hatzidakes rejected these theses in various texts and among them in "Zur Abstammung der alten Makedonier (eine ethnologische Studie)". For more details we refer to Daskalakis (page 104).

Coins found in Macedonia have inscriptions in greek and are dated from the early 5th BC century. Such found coins are the following ones.

An octadrachm of Alexander I (circa 478BC).
Coins from the reign of Archelaos (413-399BC) and Amyntas III (393-370BC).
the ring of Sindos with the word Gk:'DVRON' (Gift) dated around 480BC.
These coins are dated well before 340BC, the time of the alleged "hellenization" of Macedonians.

Macedonians had their own month names. If one accepts the thesis that Macedonian were 'hellenized' by the Athenians some time around 340BC hen one can safely assume that these names must be identical to those used by the Athenians. If not, they would show the linguistic roots of the Macedonians prior to their alleged who claimed that Dorians and Macedonians belonged to the same tribe (Herodotus claimed that the Macedonians who descended to southern Greece after crossing Doris became known as Dorians) and thus Macedonians were a Greek tribe, the month names of Macedonians were Greek and were different from the ones used by the Athenians. The list of these names used by the Macedonians and the list of month names of the Lacedaemonians (who were Dorians) have a common intersection, the names Artemisios and Apellaios.

Persians when first occupied Macedonia during their conquests in Europe around 510-480BC described the people living in Macedonia as "The Greeks wearing a shield-like hat" and who were non other than the Macedonians themselves. This incident occurred long before the alleged "hellenization" of Macedonians.

It is believed that the worship of the 12 Olympian Gods had started in Macedonia (as related to their place of "residence". Mountain Olympus is located in Pieria and both these names are Greek. It is claimed the magnificent view of Mt. Olympus when viewed from Macedonia, while its view from the south (Thessaly) is hindered by other mountains, inspired the Macedonians and from the other Greeks to consider this mountain the residence of their Gods.

Athenian comedies used to make fun of the idioms and the dialects of other Greeks like those of Spartans, Boeoteans and of course Macedonians. Some time in the 5th century BC a comedy entitled "Pausanias or Macedonians?" written by the Athenian Strattis was played in Athens. In various parts of this comedy a Macedonian explains how various words of the attic dialect are called in the Macedonian dialect.

It can be inferred from these references that Macedonians spoke a Doric Greek dialect. In a work of the ancient writer Athenaios, one can find samples of the work of Strattis. In an article written by A. Koerte quoting Athenaios VII,323b we can find in that comedy of Strattis the following conversation:

"STRATTIS GOYN EN MAKEDOSIN EROMENOU TINOS ATTIKOY VS AGNOOYNTOS TO ONOMA KAI LEGONTOS: H SFYRAINA D' ESTI TIS;" FHSIN O ETEROS " KESTRAN MEN YMMES VTTIKOI KIKLHSKETE".

[LORDanonymous]

In English (as it appeared in the article by M. Sakellariou) an Athenian asks "sledfish, what do you mean?" and a Macedonian replies "wha ye Attics ca' a hammer-fush, ma freen" i.e. in my own words, which I hope do not change the meaning of this phrase "what you Attics call a hammer-fush, (we call a) freen".

One can appreciate the value of the Macedonian's reply for the object under discussion if he does not forget that as is clear from many passages in Aristophanes the attic comedians made their non-Greeks speak broken Greek with an a mixture of barbarian words (some of them imaginary) while Lacedaemonians, Boeotians, Macedonians and other Greeks spoke their own dialects. The Macedonian's reply is in good Greek with dialect (ymmes, sfyraina) and archaizing elements (kiklhskete). Both YMMES and SFYRAINA are not attic words but they are Greek. Therefore claims that Athenians "hellenized" Macedonians seem to be baseless. It is also noted that these words were used by the Macedonians some time in the 5th century BC that is at least 50 years before their alleged hellenization.

An ambassador from Macedonia speaking to the Aetolians in 200BC observed that the Macedonians, the Aetolians and the Arkanians all spoke the same language.

The expressions "aneboa MAKEDONISTI", "MAKEDONISTI th fvnh" have been taken by opponents of the thesis that the Macedonians were Greeks as indicating that their language differed from Greek. One can claim that these formulation indicate a Greek dialect (cf [In Greek] "aiolizein th fvnh", "attikizei", "attikisti", "boivtiazein","dvrizein" etc).

To those who are more interested in the characteristics of the dialect of Greek spoken by the Macedonians the article by M. Sakellariou in "Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek history and civilization" is available on request. In general few words of non-greek origin were used in the Macedonian dialect of greek an most of these words were proper names. Some of them were names of Egyptian deities worshipped in Macedonia after the 3rd century BC. Even in the times of Herodotos (II 153, III 27, IV 155, VI 27) barbarian (non-greek) names were in use by Greeks. Strabo VII 7,1 (C321) also mentioned various names of non-greek origin such as KEKROPS (Greek: KEKROC) KODROS, AIKLOS (Gk: A.I.KLOS), KOTHOS (Gk: KOUOS), DRYMAS (Gk: DRYMAS) KRINAKOS (Gk: KRINAKOS).

It should also be mentioned that many place-names in ancient Macedonia (and modern-day Macedonia of Greece) are of Greek origin and of use in other areas of Greece as well. Such names are: Argos (Gk: ARGOS), also found in Thessaly and Peloponnesos. Arnissa(Gk: ARNISSA) reminds of Arnen (Gk: ARNHN) of Thessaly and Boeotia. Arethoussa (Gk: AREUOYSSA) also found in Ithaca, Boeotia, Syracuses. Prasias a lake and a city name is also found in Athens as PRASIAI, and many other ones (such as Oedomenae, Petra, Fila, Gortynia, Pynda etc).

Many other words of the Macedonian dialect are of ancient Doric origin such as [the Macedonian Doric and attic equivalent names are shown in Greek only]: santoria = svthria, zereuron = bereuron, barauron xarvn = xairvn arkon = argos dvraj = uvraj danon = uanon , uanatos kadaron = kauaron sarisa = dory (from the verb sairv, sarvnv) etc. Some other words of the Macedonian dialect of greek can be traced back in the Homeric poems: amalos = apalos indea = meshmbrian ( indion hmar) leykanih = laimos lisson = omalon , leion (lygos = rabdos).

Fore more details see the work of Geyer Fr., where he showed that the names of Macedonian months and festivities although they could not be found anywhere in classic Greece were archaic Greek ones and showed the Doric origin of the Macedonians.

The fact that Macedonians participated in various celebrations like the Amphictyonies and the Phocica also show the belief of themselves and the other Greeks in their origin. It is for these reasons that Professor F. Papazoglou in "Historija Hellenizma", Belgrade, 1967 claimed that Macedonians were Greeks, a claim also supported by Heinz Kreissing in "Povijest Hellenizma", Zagreb, 1988.

Prof. Arnold Toynbee in "The Greeks and their Heritages", Oxford University Press, 1981 also claimed that ancient Macedonians were Greeks.


Post-Vergina evidence.
The excavations in Vergina have brought to light many tombs that buried ancient Macedonians. There are inscription on these tombs with the names of the deceased person and those of his/her progenitors. All names found so far have been Greek. Given that some of these tombs are dated from the 350BC era, one can conclude that by some time in late 5th century Macedonians have been naming their children with Greek names. And since contacts with the Athenians were rare to non-existent at that time one can safely conclude that claims that Macedonians were not Greeks and were only 'hellenized' in the 4th century BC are false.

Published information on the excavations in Vergina is mostly in the form of papers submitted to various conferences.


Q11)"ANEBOA MAKEDONISTI" ?
Those who claim that the Macedonians were not a Greek tribe considered this expression as evidence that the language of the Macedonians was a non-greek one. Previous questions (Question 10) discussed the refutation of this thesis in more detail. A discussion of this phrase only will be dealt here. It is based on that of the book by Daskalakis (see references).

The expression "ANEBOA MAKEDONISTI" was first found in the works of Plutarchos (ALEXANDORS LI, 4) and that of the Latin Kurtius Rufus. The phrase is found in the following passage [ In Greek: ]

"TVN DE SVMATOFYLAKVN ENOS, ARISTOFANOYS, FUASANTOS YFELESUAI, KAI TVN ALLVN PERIEXONTVN KAI DEOMENVN, ANAPHDHSAS (cf Alexandros) ANEBOA MAKEDONISTI KALVN TOYS YPASPISTAS (TOYTO D' HN SYMBOLO UORYBOU MEGALOU), KAI TON SALPIGKTHN EKELEYSE SAHMAINEIN, KAI PYJ EPAISEN, VS DIATRIBONTA KAI MH BOYLOMENON..."

On the other hand Arrhianos, whose sources included lost works of Alexander's co-fighters and eye witnesses, describing this episode that resulted in the death of Kleitos used the following phrase: " ALEJANDROS DE EBOA ANAKALVN TOYS YPASPISTAS". No reference to MAKEDONISTI appeared in Arrhianos' version of the episode. This may lead to the conclusion that the word "MAKEDONISTI" was somehow added at some later time, or the interpretation that has been given to it by some translators was not the one intended by Plutarchos. It is also noted that references to the expression "Macedonia and the other Greece" are numerous in his work.

In Plutarchos' rendition of the episode the distinction between ANEBOA (called, shouted, roared) and KALVN (calling) is evident. Given the explanatory statement "TOYTO D' HN SYMBOLO UORYBOY MEGALOY" ('this was a sign of great noise') it can be concluded that ANEBOA referred to some kind of password used by ALEXANDER the Great to call his YPASPISTAS (sort of bodyguards) in cases of emergencies only, that is why its use caused great disturbance.

The absence of MAKEDONISTI in Arrhianos' rendition seems to agree with this interpretation. Let alone the fact that following this incident Alexander talked to his YPASPISTAS in attic greek. The expression "aneboa makedonisti", if this indeed appeared in the original text, is no more different from other similar expression "aiolizein th fvnh", "attikizei", "attikisti", "boivtiazein","dvrizein" which were used to denote various dialects of ancient greek.

A Latin writer Kurtius (other than the aforementioned Kurtius Rufus) gave a description of this episode similar to that of Arrhianos. No reference to MAKEDONISTI was made by him and he only wrote "that Alexander ordered via a trumpet call his soldiers to gather outside the royal tent".

There is another passage in the work of Kurtius Rufus describing the trial of Filotas which is being used by proponents of the thesis that the Macedonians spoke a non-greek language. Allegedly Filotas during his trial used the attic dialect forcing Alexander to accuse him of not using his (Filotas's) mother tongue (Macedonian, supposedly a non-greek language). Subsequently, Alexander also accused Filotas of being unwilling to learn how to speak his mother tongue! This passage contains several contradictions notwithstanding the one that Filotas was not capable of speaking his mother tongue. Alexander on the other hand, allegedly accuses Filotas of detesting the Macedonian dialect but according to Filotas' reply this accusation is spelled by Alexander in the attic rather than the Macedonian dialect! This fact alone, had this episode really happened, could have been used against Alexander himself as a counter argument and accusation. It is this reference to Alexander that made H. Bardon, publisher of Rufus's works to wonder how it was possible for Alexander to fall in such a contradiction and to accuse others of something that he himself was fighting for.

Neither Arrhianos, who lived closer to the era this episode occurred, nor Plutarchos present this incident mentioned in the work of Kurtius Rufus. H. Bardon, French publisher of Rufus's works (pub. Belles Lettres vol 1 page 201 note 1) commenting on the alleged speech of Filotas said that Kurtius Rufus was accustomed to rhetoric artifices and as a result historic truth suffered in that part of his work. All in all it can be safely concluded that this passage was more of a product of the rhetoric talents of Rufus thus attributing to Filotas a speech Filotas never gave rather than presenting the actual events. Writers who lived well before Rufus and close to the time of the incident were not aware of such a speech by Filotas.

und auf anfrage gibt es ein PART 2...


gUTE nACHT...

[merco]

Und Heute gibt es eine Republik Makedonien..die Region Pirin und Ägais-Makedonien in Bulgarien und Griechenland gehören historisch auch zur Republik Makedonien .1913/1947 wurde das Makedonische volk vertrieben und das land geteilt.Es ist allmälich ein verbrechen was unsere Nachbarn [Griechenland/Bulgarien] von sich geben ,es ist nicht korekt das Makedonische volk zu verachten.

Es ist aber ok das man heute über den Namen Makedonien diskutiert ,da es heute auch in Griechenland menschen gibt die sich als Griechische-Makedoner ansehen.Es ist aber falsch ,uns Makedoner aus der Heutigen Republik Makedonien die geschichtliche vergangenheit der letzten hahrhunderte zu wiedersbrechen und zu negieren.

[LORDanonymous]

Da Ich ...die letzten jahre im Net...des oefteren an deines gleichen getroffen habe...(unter anderem auch politische personen aber auch hoechst interessanten intelektuellen) Die im enteffekt anerkannt haben wie recherlich Ihr klingt...

die Region Pirin und Ägais-Makedonien in Bulgarien und Griechenland gehören historisch auch zur Republik Makedonien .1913/1947 wurde das Makedonische volk vertrieben und das land geteilt

Gebe Ich Dir einen Rat....
Lerne Geschichte...(Gut bis sehr Gut)
Lerne HISTORISCHE FAKTEN-Geostrategie-Geopolitic
Habe immer beweise parat...(Links-Copien usw)
Baue deine fakten immer mit beweise auf...
Real Politik ist nicht schwer zu erlernen (obs Dir gefellt oder nicht...und vor allem wenn Du schon in einem forum (seriousem) auftauchst und solche Post eroeffnest)
Must Du bereit sein...Wissen von Dir zu geben..und nicht allerlei...


Bis dann...(und sobald Du/Sie wieder bereit bist/seit)...

Welcome to a serious discussion...Denn bis Dato...stehen deine argumente nur in der "Luft"

[Bild: http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/...663063.jpg]

[soferaki]

Und Heute gibt es eine Republik Makedonien..die Region Pirin und Ägais-Makedonien in Bulgarien und Griechenland gehören historisch auch zur Republik Makedonien

Falsch historisch gehört alles Griechenland und nicht vergessen-*VN-Mitgliedschaft unter der Bezeichnung "Ehemalige Jugoslawische Republik Mazedonien". Der Staatsname ist zwischen Griechenland und der EJRM umstritten. Es laufen zur Zeit Vermittlungsbemühungen unter Schirmherrschaft der Vereinten Nationen.

merco wiederspricht sich doch nur selber, er oder sie versuchst hier Griechische,Bulgarische Geschihte zu verkaufen

[LORDanonymous]

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWIKDhhTvnU&mode=related&search=">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWIKDhhT ... ed&search=</a><!-- m -->

:lol:

Part-2


Q12) There is a reference in a work by Pausanias that may give the impression that Macedonians, around 214-213BC, were speaking a non-Greek language.
Advocates of the thesis that the Macedonian spoke a non-greek language claim that this language was spoken by them up to some time in mid 4th century BC. At that time Macedonians within few years were fully hellenized and since then they have been speaking Greek.

Long but relevant Parenthesis. Skip it if not interested: Some of these advocates accept a Skopjan point of view that all Macedonians perished and thus vanished when Slavs first appeared in the Balkan peninsula in the 7th century AD. All of a sudden these new Slavs became heir-apparents of the Macedonians, were granted presumably by Marshall Tito the exclusive right to be called 'Macedonians' and named the Bulgarian idiom also consisting of Greek, Turkish, and Albanian words formed at least 1000 years after their descent to the Balkans "the Macedonian language".

Some of them, possibly all, claim that this Slavic origin language was the language spoken by the Macedonians before the Cyrillic alphabet was introduced to these and other Slavs along with many greek words by two Macedonian (Greek) brothers, Kontantinos (later called Cyril) and Methodios from Thessaloniki. It is quite interesting to know how these Macedonian brothers escaped the fate of other fellow Macedonians and didn't perish during the descent of Slavs in the Balkan peninsula, as the advocates of Skopjan claimed that it had happened.

According to Pausanias (Messenians IV 29, 1) the residents of Messene a night around 214-213BC first thought that the Lacedaemonians had attacked them. Later, by the arms and the voices, realized that those who attacked them were soldiers led by king Demetrios. Since at that time a Demetrios was King of Macedonia, it was assumed that the attackers were Macedonians. Some authors claimed that the 'voices' reference was to mean that the Macedonians (attackers) were speaking a non-greek language at that time, an argument not accepted for the Macedonians of that time by almost everyone.

Later on, it was realized that the Demetrios in question was not the king of Macedonia, son of Philippos E', but Demetrios the Pharian, an Illyrian, who was later killed during this campaign against Messene.


Q13) Did Demosthenes believe the Macedonians were barbarians?
No. Proponents of the thesis that Macedonians spoke a non-greek language accept (usually...) that the Macedonian kings were Greeks but were ruling non-Greek people. Given the evidence that has been found in the past years from archaeological excavations they have started claiming that the kings and the upper-class had been Greek-speakers but the lower class was not.

Now to explain the "NO". One may claim that it should have been a "YES" and they would point to the "To Philippos" speech of the orator where he claimed that from these barbarian Macedonians one could not even buy slaves. I will let Professor A. Holm in his work "The history of Greece from its commencement to the close of the independence of the Greek nation", translated from German, London New York, Macmillan, 1894-1898, Volume III, page 206 to explain this passage from the speech of Demosthenes:

"That the Greeks did not consider the Macedonians as barbarians is proved involuntarily by Demosthenes (To Philippos 3, 31) where he states that "OYD ANDRAPODON SPOYDAION HN PROTEROY" from Macedonia, which stripped of its rhetoric means the Macedonians did not provide the Greeks with slaves, the meaning of which of course was that the Macedonians were not considered barbarians, like the Thracians, Phrygians..."

Given this, the discussion below seems to be redundant.

Demosthenes, an Athenian orator and politician in various speeches of his and most notably in Olynthiakos G' and later, when it was very clear to him that the power of Athens was fading away and Macedonia was the new power in the Hellenic world, accused Philippos II of many things including that of being barbarian. This is not surprising for Demosthenes who spent his whole life advocating the superiority of Athens over the other Hellenic states, even if that required that some Greek city-states were to be destroyed or to suffer for Athens to remain the leader of Greece [See, For the Megalopolitans,5].

In his Third Olynthiakos, 16, Demosthenes wrote

"Is he (Philippos) not our enemy? Are not our possessions in his hands? Is he not a barbarian? Is he not anything that you choose to call him? In God's name, when we have let everything go, when we have all but put everything into his hands, shall we then inquire at large who is responsible for it all?"

There are no explicit accusations of Macedonians as a whole of being so (barbarians). Given that such an assertion against Philippos is shared by no one and given so many references in antiquity to his descent [Herodotos, Thucydides, Isocrates, Hesiodos, Hellanikos] in various texts any other discussion on this question seems pointless. In one translation of this speech by John Edwin Santys in "The first Philippic and the Olynthiacs of Demosthenes", Macmillan and Co, the translator commented on this passage Argos [Herodotos VIII 137, IX 45, Thucydides II 99,2, V 80,2] and one of Philip's ancestors, Alexander A', had as a Greek been allowed to compete at the Olympic games [Herodotos V 22]. Demosthenes, however, in his hatred of Philip, never acknowledges his Greek descent. ... of breath as he gasps out this final and comprehensive phrase of vituperation. In such a spasmodic utterance no one need be surprised either at the presence of hiatus or at the concurrence of several short syllables". Those who believe that this phrase of Demosthenes is not a term of abuse but truth are those who believe that President-elect Clinton is indeed 'Bozo' as President Bush claimed, which I doubt that even President Bush believes.

There is also another reason that this accusation against Philippos on behalf of Demosthenes was more of a figure of speech than anything else.

Demosthenes mother (or his maternal grandmother) was a Skythian, a non-Greek and thus a non-Athenian. Had his accusation been taken seriously we could have been accused and for a good reason of being a barbarian himself.

In fact Aeschines (On the Embassy, 78) expressed this opinion by saying ".... KAI TAYTA, V DHMOSUENES, EK TVN NOMADVN SKYUVN TO PROS MHTROS VN GENOS", that is, "you, Demosthenes, a descendant through your mother of the nomad Skythians" as well as (Against Ctesiphon, 172) "TA D' APO THS MHTROS [DHMOSUENHS] SKYUHS, BARBAROS, ELLHNIZVN TH FVNH" that is, "and by his mother's side [Demosthenes is] a Scythian, a Greek speaking Barbarian", and earlier in that passage Aeschines accused Demothenes of being a slanderer "EJ' HS YMIN O PERIERGOS KAI SYKOFANTHS [DEMOSTHENES] GEGENHTAI". [Some authors believe that Kleovouli, mother of Demosthenes, was daughter of Gylon who settled in Crimaea and married a Scythian woman.]

Let alone the fact that Demosthenes, an 'honorable' Athenian citizen, was bribed later by the Persians (barbarians) to write speeches against Philippos and at the same time was also accusing Philippos of bribing Athenians and various Athenians of being bribed by Philippos. Demosthenes would also look very silly since another Athenian, Isocrates, in, To Philippos,108 wrote considered Philippos an Hellen and urged him to unite all Hellenes and lead them in a war against the Barbarians.

In one of his speeches, On the Embassy 305, Demosthenes in his effort to accuse orator Aeschines of inconsistent and possibly traitorous behavior accused Aeschines of calling Philippos 'barbarian' and 'devil'. In his Third Philippic, 31, Demosthenes accused Philippos of being "he is a pestilent Macedonian, from whose country it used not to be possible to buy even a slave of any value" [There were no slaves in the Macedonian state as opposed to other greek city-states]. On the other hand in the Third Olynthiac Demosthenes commended the Athenians on extracting 10,000 talents from Macedonia and bringing them into the Acropolis many years earlier, in the fifth century BC.

Accusations by Aeschines on the past and present behavior of Demosthenes such as of inflicting wounds on himself and bringing suit for malicious assault, (in Against Ctesiphon, 212), of becoming a teacher in order to extract large amounts of money from his pupils (in Against Timarchus, 171), of taking money from his clients for writing speeches to be delivered in court and then revealing the contents of these speeches to their opponents (in On the Embassy, 165), of belittling young Alexander by claiming that he would prove incompetent and would never stir out of Macedonia (Against Ctesiphon 160), of later seeking favor from Alexander (same,162), of his insincerity and cowardice (against Ctesiphon 150-152), are omitted.

The following remark made by an ancient writer commenting on Demosthenes' accusation of Philippos (Olynthiakos G' 16) being a barbarian highlights the beliefs of all other Greeks as well as the real beliefs of Demosthenes:

"YBRISAI TOYTON (meaning FILIPPON DEMOSUENHS) BOYLOMENOS KALEIN BARBARON, EPEI <EI> TO ALHUES SKOPHSEI, EYRHSEI AYTON ELLHNAN ARGEION KAI APO HRAKLEOYS TO GENOS KATAGOMENON, VS PANTES OI ISTORIKOI MARTYROYSIN...".

In short the accusation on behalf of Demosthenes was just a slander since every historian at that time knew that Philippos was Greek in descent.


Q14) Is there any reference by Demosthenes to an incident that can lead us to conclude that he and his fellow Athenians believed that Macedonians indeed spoke a greek dialect?
Yes. Demosthenes in a speech of his (in Greek: PERI THS PARAPRESBEIAS[On the Embassy?] 197,229) described an incident in which Frynonas, an Athenian, while traveling to Olympia had his luggage taken by Macedonian soldiers. Frynonas acted later as an Athenian ambassador to Philippos II. Philippos II ordered his soldiers to return the taken property to Frynonans and apologized for his soldiers not knowing that that time was a period of religious festivities. Had the Macedonian soldiers not spoken a greek dialect Philippos II would have used that as an excuse, Demosthenes would have been very keen to pointing this out in his speech, and taken up with great delight, as we may guess, the opportunity to accuse not only Philippos but also his soldiers of barbarian behavior. Nevertheless, he didn't do that because he knew that the Macedonians spoke a greek dialect.

No lack of understanding between the Macedonians and the Athenians at that time (at the time that the alleged "hellenization" of Macedonians was about to begin) has been reported in any ancient text.

Demosthenes, as an ambassador of Athens visited Macedonia twice. This happened before his now famous (or infamous) speeches against Philippos. During his two visits and afterwards never complained of Macedonians being "barbarians", or speaking a non-greek language. On the contrary we was dazzled by the riches of the palace of Philippos in Pella.


Q15) Is it possible [ignoring historic evidence that shows that this was not the case] that Macedonians had spoken a non-greek language before 340BC and within a 10-20 year period every Macedonian was fluent in the attic dialect?
The answer is no, unless one sites as an example the races in Star Trek: The Next Generation (Trademark by Paramount Pictures) who are all fluent in English no matter how alien or young or French for that matter are

Arrhianos presented many instances of Alexander the Great talking to his fellow Macedonian soldiers in Greek (attic)) and not say, in their supposedly non-greek mother tongue. Wouldn't his soldiers feel more comfortable in their mother tongue (a supposedly non greek one)?


Q16) Who may have 'hellenized' ancient Macedonians, if we assume, despite proof for the contrary, that they were not a greek tribe ?
This is a question that none could give an answer. Assuming that ancient Macedonians were not speaking Greek the large number of Doric and thus non-attic words found in their spoken language, let alone place-names, month-names, attributes to Gods and Goddesses, festival names etc seem to zero the probability that Athenians were the ones who hellenized them. The large number of archaic greek words not used by other Greeks of that time preclude any other greek city-state or kingdom of the classic times to be responsible for that alleged 'hellenization'. Remembering the not so friendly relations between the Macedonians and the Athenians, the vastness of the Macedonian kingdom as opposed to that of the city state of Athens, and its population -Macedonians were able to form sizeable armies, by Greek standards- it is highly unlikely that any other Greek state or Athens could have undertaken such an enormous task and had it completed in a 10-20 year period.

On the other hand, Alexander A' when he initiated his otherwise brief contacts with the Greeks in the South he was able to talk to them in Greek fluently. If Macedonians were to be hellenized in the 4th century BC there would have been no way for Alexander A' to speak greek. If he and his family were the only Greek speakers in Macedonia it would have been highly unlikely that he and his family had retained the ability to speak Greek fluently.

One of the tragedies Euripides first presented in Macedonia was Iphigeneia in Aulis and Ekavi. In Iphigeneia (1400) and Ekavi (1199) "OYPOT' AN FILON / TO BARBARON GENOIT' AN ELLHSIN GENOS / OYD AN DYNAITO", the greek superiority over the Barbarians was highlighted. It would have been be too dangerous for him to express such opinions to a non-greek audience (if Macedonians were not Greek and spoke a non-Greek language). Let alone the fact that the language of his tragedies was Greek.

Q17) Isocrates used the phrases "ALOFYLON TO GENOS", "OYX OMOFYLOY GENOYS". Do they mean "of other tribe" or "of other race"?
We discussed in previous paragraphs the various interpretations of the word Hellen (Greek) in various times in antiquity. The word Hellen used to describe in Homeric times the people living in some place (the MYRMIDONES in Thessaly) and later (possibly) those living in Epeiros if one believes that the Selloi of Epeiros, also called Graecoi, were later became known as Hellenes. Only in the 8-7th century BC was the word Hellen used to describe as a whole various Greek (Hellenic) tribes. Since at that time Macedonians were in constant wars with the Illyrians and other non-greek tribes and had little contacts with the other Greek tribes in the South the term Hellenes with its new meaning was not familiar to them.

Thus distinction between Hellenes and Macedonians used by writers at that time (who nevertheless had no doubt of the Greekness of the Macedonians) shouldn't be a source of false claims. The following excerpt of Isocrates' speech highlights this.

(Isocrates. Philip. 154):

" HN GAR TAYTA PRATTHS, APANTES SOI XARIN EJOYSI, OI MEN ELLHNES YPER VN AN EY PASXVSI, MAKEDONES D' HN BASILIKVS ALLA MH TYRANNIKVS AYTVN EPISTATHS, TO DE TVN ALLVN GENOS, HN DIA SE BARBARIKHS DESPOTEIAS APALLAGENTES ELLHNIKHS EPIMELEIAS TYXVSIN"

Although Isocrates distinguished Hellenes from Macedonians by including in the first term the at that time accepted interpretation of "the greek tribes living south of river Peneios", he nevertheless believed that the people who got rid of the "BARBARIKHS DESPOTEIAS" (barbarian rule) with the assistance of Macedonians are now ruled and taken care of ("ELLHNIKHS EPIMELEIAS TYXVSIN") by people (Macedonians) belonging to Greek tribes.

Isocrates is well known for suggesting that Philippos II (In his speech: To Philippos) lead a pan Hellenic hegemony, consisting only of Greeks, that will unify all Hellenic tribes and lead them in a war against the barbarians [To Philippos, 115,80, 127-128,8,16]. A reference by him to Macedonians as "OYX OMOFYLOY GENOYS"(TO Philippos,108) there, has been interpreted by some to mean "of other race" rather than "of other tribe" thus earning him many supporters among the ones who claim that Macedonians were not Greek. It seems quite weird that Isocrates would like the leader of a "barbarian tribe" to unite all Hellenes, including his own "barbarians".

The answer to this misinterpretation of the "OYX OMOFYLON GENOS" will become apparent shortly.

In the same text (To Philippos,32) Isocrates wrote "UHBAIOI DE TON ARXHGON TOY GENOYS YMVN TIMVSI" that is that Isocrates was aware of the Macedonian-Doric connection and/or the legend that the Macedonian kings were considered descendants of Hercules. The 'founder of your tribe' refers to Hercules. If 'GENOYS'(of TRIBE) were to mean RACE (the Hellenic one in particular) Isocrates would have used HMVN (that is, 'founder of our tribe') instead of YMVN (that is, 'founder of your tribe').

This meaning of the word GENOS (tribe rather than race) can also be found in Herodotos (I, 56, mentioned in Question 8) where the Lacedaemonians are of "DVRIKOU GENOUS' (Doric, presumably, tribe) while the Athenians are of "IVNIKOY" (Ionian, presumably, tribe). Had GENOS meant race one must conclude that either Iones (say, Athenians) or Dorians (say Spartans) were not Greek. It is worth mentioning that in that same passage Herodotos used the word 'EUNOS' (nowadays it means 'people'...) for the ancient Pelasgian and Hellenic people ('EUNH'). Herodotos included the Ionians in the Pelasgian and Dorians in the Hellenic people, although both were Hellenic (greek) tribes. So much for confusing terms...

In VIII,144, Herodotos distinguished Hellenic tribes from the Barbarians on the basis of 'blood' and 'speech' (OMAIMON and OMOGLVSSON) rather than of race or tribe which didn't have very specific meanings at that time.

The following references in addition to the previous ones, show that the word "FYLON", "GENOS" had at that time the meaning of the English word TRIBE rather than that of RACE, thus "ALOFYLON GENOS" and "OYX OMOFYLON GENOS" means "of other (not of the same) tribe", as this was true for the Athenians (ionic tribe) and Macedonians (Doric one). The interpretation "of other (not of the same) race" for "ALOFYLOY GENOS" and "OYX OMOFYLON" is thus incorrect.

Thucydides (I, 141) : Pericles talking about the Peloponnesians said "PANTES TE ISOCHFIOI ONTES KAI OYX OMOFYLOI TO EF' EAYTON EKASTOS SPEYDH" that is, he considered Peloponnesians not "OMOFYLOI" to the Athenians. Since everyone considered both Peloponnesians and Athenians to be Greek, 'OMOFYLOI' had thus the meaning of the 'same tribe' rather than of 'same race'.
Dicaiarchos : "FYLH DE KAI FYLETAI PROTERON VNOMASUHSAN EK THS EIS TAS POLEIS KAI TA KALOYMENA EUNH SYNODOY GENOMENHS; EKASTON GAR TVN SYNELUONTVN FYLON ELEGETO EINAI". Same meaning as before.
Herodotos (VIII, 144) distinguishes Hellenic tribes from Barbarians depending on the "OMAIMON" (same blood) and "OMOGLVSSON" (same tongue) but not of the "OMOFYLON" (same tribe).
Euripides (Her. Main. 1200) agreed with Herodotos.
Eustathios (93,3) assigned the meaning of tribe to 'FYLON'.
It was known to Isocrates (as attested in the same speech) the tradition relating Macedonians and Dorians and the "ALOFYLOY" was pointing out this difference between the Athenians and Macedonians. Later in his speech Isocrates asked Philippos to unite the Hellenes and drive them against the barbarians. He also suggested that Philippos should lead only Greeks against the barbarians. Had Macedonians been considered barbarians the suggestions would have been at least absurd and offending rather than encouraging and flattering, as they were intended to be.

In another part of its speech/letter Isocrates mentions that Philippos rules people (Macedonians) of not his own tribe-race. Some claim that this is a proof of the non-Greekness of Macedonians in the sense that considering Philippos to be Greek (according to the legend of his family's descent) the tribe-race is to mean that the people he ruled were not Greeks. The accurate meaning of this phrase can only be derived by reading the whole passage. Isocrates suggests to Philippos that the kind of rule (monarchy) that was so successful in Macedonia is not guaranteed to be successful in the city-states of Southern Greece. Thus, he should choose another form of government when he (Philippos) becomes hegemon of all Greece. In order to support this he cites the example of his ancestors who unable to rule Argos, since at that time monarchies were detested in Southern Greece and the trend was the establishment of city-states, were only successful in ruling another tribe, that of Macedonians.


Q18) Skopjans accuse us Macedonians in Greece of changing the names of our cities into Greek ones some time in the 20th century instead of using the Slavic names assigned to these cities since "ancient" (sic) names. They claim that Edessa for example should not be called so but VODEN instead, and Thessaloniki should be called SOLUN.
Cities in Macedonia, the ancient kingdom and the province of Greece, still have the names they had in antiquity, at least for the cities that existed at that time. The names of some of these cities may not be even of Greek origin, thus showing that Skopjan claims are not only false but at least silly or absurd.

The Skopjans claim that the Macedonian city of Edessa in the Pella prefecture of Macedonia, Greece, should not be called so but Voden instead. They also claim that we Macedonians changed the name of the city from the Slavic one "VODEN" into the "greek" one EDESSA. The city of EDESSA has been called so since prehistoric times. It is amusing to point out that many believe the name Edessa is not of Greek, but possibly of Phrygic origin denoting a place rich of waters. Edessa has always been famous of her waterfalls. Others may claim that the suffix "-dessa" may indicate 'water' in some prehistoric form of the greek word (GK:YDVR) for water. This connection of the name 'EDESSA' with 'water' had confused many historians until 1976. They used to believe that Edessa was ancient Aegae, the royal city of the Macedonian Kings. They thought that the word 'Aegae' was derived not from the word 'aega' (she-goat) as this is related with the myth of the creation of the Macedonian state by Karanos, but from the Doric prefix Aeg- denoting 'water' (cf Edessa). In Doric, 'aegae' means '(water) waves' (The 'Aegean Sea' is an obvious example). Given that both names Edessa and Aegae have to do with 'waters' archaelogists thought that Edessa=Aegae.

This argument was put in rest by Nicholas L. G. Hammond in 1968 when he suggested that Vergina and not Edessa was the ancient Aegae, a correct assertion as it was proved in 1976 by the excavations of M. Andronikos in Vergina. Though Vergina is not on the sea shore of Thermaikos Bay it is believed that in the BC centuries the present lands separating Vergina from the sea were wetlands.

It is noted that the Slavic word VODEN also denotes 'water'. It is also worth mentioning that the city of Skopje whose name is probably derives from the greek one 'Skopia', was invariably called 'Uskub', 'Skupoi', 'Skup', 'Skopje', and as of few years ago 'Skoplje'.

Another Example is the city of Kastoria in Western Macedonia, Greece. Skopjans prefer to call it Kostur and suggest that Greeks should call it so. The name of the city 'Kastoria' comes from the mythical hero Kastor (Castor) brother of Polydeukes, son of Leda and Zeus.

Regarding Thessaloniki (called Salonica or Saloniki also in English) if one opens an ancient map he will realize that the name of the city has been Thessaloniki and not Solun (as Skopjan suggest that we should call the city) since ancient times.


Q19)Skopjans claim that when Slavs descended to the Balkan peninsula, in the 7th century AD, Macedonians vanished and there was a kind of 'slavicization' of Macedonia which 'gave birth' to the "Slavic-Macedonians" as Skopjans claim they are (at least some of them), the supposedly deserved ancestors of ancient Macedonians. Are such claims true say up to 15th century AD?
The distinction between Macedonians, Thessalians, Athenians, Spartans and Lacaedemonians in antiquity which indicated among other things greek tribes of distinct customs, spoken dialects ceased to exist with the passage of time. As of the Hellenistic period almost all Greeks were using the attic dialect for their communication while all the other dialects (of greek) were dropped from regular use. The rise of Christianity erased distinctions based in religious matters and the place of residence was then used distinguish say Thessalians from Macedonians and Athenians. Their common greek dialect (the attic one) though evolved differently in various regions thus giving the various dialects of modern greek.

To say that Macedonians vanished some time in the 7AD century is to claim that the Greeks (many of them ancestors of Doric people called Macedonians, other possibly ancestor of other Aeolic, Doric or ionic people, others of mixed parentage) residing in Macedonia were all killed at that time, an absurdity.

Around 688, emperor Justinian B', after the defeat of the Bulgars and Slavs in lower Moissia transferred all the Slavs in the northern European part of his empire (that is of Macedonia and Thrace of nowadays Greece and territories covering the Rep. of Skopje, Albania and parts of Bulgaria) to Asia Minor. These were estimated to be 80,000 but probably were more than that since two years later the emperor preparing for a war against the Arabs conscripted 30,000 men from this population to his army. These Slavs subsequently switched sides and supported the Arabs. The emperor for retribution killed all the remaining Slavs in Asia Minor.

About one hundred years later, in 773AD, the Bulgarian population in the Balkans was reduced after repeated defeats in battles with the Byzantine emperors. When the Bulgars decided to strengthen their army and find new recruits they marched to Thessaly, since there were no Slavs in Macedonia, to capture a small Slavic tribe living there. On their way there they were annihilated by the Byzantine forces. In the next century forced movements of Slavic populations from Greece to Asia Minor continued.

The conclusion is that the Byzantine emperors did everything possible to clear up the northern territories (including Macedonia and Thrace of modern day Greece) of their empire of Slavs.

Various non-Greek sources indicate that not only Macedonia of modern day Greece but also Rep. of Skopje (the latter, if not entirely, at least predominantly) were Greek till the late 15th century AD.

C. Jirecek, in "Geschichte der Serben" claimed that Macedonians were always Greek and all the area south of the line defined by the cities Achris-Skopje-Nissa-Sofia-Aimos-Messimbria was greek (an assertion also confirmed by other authors such as Th. Mommsen, A. Karnach).

Hertzberg (in "Geschichte Byzantinissen") (Vol B, Book A, Chapter Gamma, page 184, 1906 edition). said that in 1282, the population below the line Euxinus Pontus-Aimos-Kustendil-Skopje-Skutari was Greek, in tongue, in customs and working for the greek interests.

One can then wonder when the Bulgarian idiom spoken by the Skopjans was in use say in the lands of nowadays Rep. of Skopje, let alone in antiquity [since Skopjans claim that the Slavic idiom spoken by the Slavs who descended to the Balkans in the 7th AD century was used by the ancient Macedonian 1000-1500 years earlier!].

The French historian Haumant, in "La formation de la Yugoslavie", mentioned that in the 13th century the area from Prisreni to Nissa was empty of people. If there were no Slavs there, then how and when the "Macedonians" of Skopjan type appeared in Macedonia and the Republic of Skopje? This is the reason Albanians (70%?) occupy the region of Cossyphopedio (Kosovo).

Hertzberg, in "Geschichte Byzantinissen", mentioned that when in the 14th century Dushan shared his kingdom with his son he kept the greek area south of Skopje and gave his son the northern Serbian areas (this is also confirmed by a Czech historian, Jirecek). All his orders were then written in Greek and not in any idiom like the one now spoken in the Republic of Skopje. In 1350 when John Katakouzenos was in the city of Verhoia representatives of all big greek cities (Skopje included) visited him and asked for help. Jirecek mentioned in his book that at this time Skopje was a greek city inhabited mainly by Greeks despite being part of the Serbian kingdom for more than a century. Following Dushan's death around 1355 his son's empire began to collapse. Dushan's brother, Symeon, proclaimed himself an emperor and accorded himself the surname of "Palaeologos" in an attempt to gain the favor of the Greek population of his kingdom(empire). He also wrote his orders in Greek (and not in any strange called Slavic idioms).

Soon the Greeks gained the control of the garrisons of various greek cities (such as Verhoia, Edessa, and Skopje). Officials in Dushan's empire quickly abandoned these greek cities and moved to Prisreni and later to Krusevach. The greek inhabitants remained in the areas they had been living for many centuries, if not millennia.

Since even in the years of Dushan, when the Slavic influence and control in the areas of Macedonia Greece), western part of Albania, Republic of Skopje and Yugoslavia (Serbia+Kosovo) was at its peak Macedonian Greeks were not "slavisized", how was that possible under the Ottoman rule, when after the defeat of Serbia by the Ottomans circa 1459, the Slavs migrated to the north and the area south of the city of Skopje was inhabited by Greeks only? If the strong presence of Slavs at that time didn't cause the Macedonians to vanish how was that possible to happen before? How come the vanished Macedonians of 7th AD survived as late as 15th AD? and later?


Q20) Do the Skopjans have desires on Macedonia, Greece?
Greece claims that Skopjans, who are evidently non-Greeks, by using to identify themselves a Hellenic (greek) name that still identifies a region in modern Greece, the people living in that region, and their thousands year old heritage, implies territorial claims on behalf of Skopje. Such opinions were shared by US officials when the late Marshall Tito, in 1944, created a (now former) Yugoslav Socialist Republic of "Macedonia".

There are many Skopjan provocations supporting Greece's position.

The use of Slavic names for Greek cities instead of the Greek ones (they prefer to call Thessaloniki, Solun, to call Kastoria , Kostur, to call Florina, Lerin, to call Edessa, Voden etc), beyond the usual changes that the translation of various names from one language to another requires. The use of Slavic toponyms is intended to cast a doubt on the Greekness of the various places in Macedonia. This is also confirmed by the fact that the Skopjans never use the term say "Greek Macedonia" but speak of the "Aegean Macedonia" (see discussion below).
The use of the term "Aegean Macedonia" (a term invented and used by Skopjans and by people of similar desires) instead of say the more acceptable and less suspicious "Greek Macedonia" to identify Macedonia, Greece (that is the region called Macedonia in Greece). This can be interpreted as an attempt to present this part as a member of a whole (usually called "Greater Macedonia") yet "un-liberated". The Bulgarian oriented (terrorist) organization called IMRO (founded in the beginning of the 20th century) and the current political party VMRO of the Republic of Skopje expressed and express such claims quite often.
3) [From [7]]: A calendar for the year 1981 was published in Skopje and circulated around the world that had on its cover the word "macedonija" written in the Slavic script. Under this word a warrior appeared, like the old Commitadjis [Bulgar terrorists who in the late 19th and early 20th century intended to include Macedonia and Thrace of Greece, Rep of Skopje as well as areas of nowadays Bulgaria to then Bulgaria], with the bayonet fastened on his rifle. Under him the well known Statue of Liberty (yes! the one in New York!) was depicted. This statue is supported on a map of the Balkan Peninsula and largely on Macedonia, Greece. Under this picture it is written in English "Independent and Free Macedonia" (implying that Macedonia, Greece was not free at that time!!!).
Maps depicting Macedonia, Greece, as part of the Republic of Skopje have been published recently (November 1992) in Skopje according to various reports.
[From [7]]: In 1973 a large size picture book was circulated in many languages which shows "the immigrants" from the other two sectors of "Macedonia" (supposedly the "Aegean Macedonia" of Greece, as Macedonia is euphemistically called by the Skopjans, and the "Pirin Macedonia" as the southwestern part of Bulgaria is also called by the Skopjans) "who have not been liberated yet", to "nostalgically" visit the "free" "Macedonia" of Skopje. This book, entitled MACEDONIAN VISTAS is still under circulation (at the time of the writing of reference [7], i.e. 1984) in the bookstores of Belgrade and Skopje.'
More recently maps found in various Skopjan cultural centers around the world include various areas of Greece in their Skopjan state (Thessaly is included in some cases).
In early 1992 a currency was printed in Skopje depicting the White Tower a landmark of Thessaloniki, the capital of Macedonia, Greece.
[NOTE: This was not an officially sanctioned banknote but a souvenir banknote printed by some Skopje company. Still it is interesting why these things would be popular enough to make and sell in Skopje. - ce107]

This fall it was decided in Rep. of Skopje that the coat of arms of the Republic of Skopje would be the coats of arms of the royal family of Philippos II, father of Alexander the Great. The coat of arms, a sun, was depicted in a gold larnax found in the grave of Philippos II, in Vergina, Macedonia, Greece, by the late Professor Manolis Andronikos. There have been announcements recently in Greek newspapers by Greek archaelogists that the so-called Vergina-Star has also been found elsewhere in Greece (Attica) and these occurrences are dated around the early 5th century BC (470BC).
It is open to the reader to decide what the Slavs of Skopje, who descended in the Balkans in the late 7AD century that is 1000 years after the death of Philippos II, have to do with a greek tribe, the coat of arms of their Greek Kings, and their greek heritage. It seems that the Skopjans will never stop claiming other people's heritage.

[The following are take from reference [8]].


June 1951: A book is published entitled '"Slavomacedonian" fighters'. The hero of the Greek war of independence Markos Botsaris is referred to as "Marc Botsar" allegedly a "Macedonian" of the Skopjan type.
September 2, 1951: The Interior Ministry (of Yugoslavia) gives a certificate to a person born in Agia Paraskevi, Macedonia, Greece. Macedonia is referred to as "People's Republic of Aegean Macedonia." (For your own information, Greece has never been a People's Republic, as this term is used by Communists).
November 1951: The Geography book for the third grade of High School for the students of the then Socialist Republic that is now Rep. of Skopje allegedly mentioned that "our borders with Greece are just physical and not national ones, since the Aegean Macedonia remains under the rule of Greece".
End of 1960: The Government in Belgrade adopted a law that officially recognized as time served to the Yugoslavian Armed Forces the time served by Greek Communist guerillas in Greek-communist organizations, other than EAM-ELAS, fighting against the Greek government during the greek civil war 1944-1949. Participation in EAM-ELAS (1941-1949) has been recognised since 1954.
February 1961: The filming of a movie entitled something like "Revolutionaries in Thessaloniki" began at that time in Skopje. The topic of the movie was a Bulgarian terrorist act in Thessaloniki in April 1903, when the city was under Ottoman rule. The Bulgars are depicted in the film as "Macedonians" (of the skopjan type), and the terrorist event is depicted as part of the "fight of Macedonians for independence".
This is just a small sample of the Skopjan provocations.


Q21)When did 'Macedonians' of the Skopjan type first appear?
Tito by the end of the WWII created a Yugoslav Socialist Republic that he called "Macedonia". The inhabitants of this new Republic were called "Macedonians". The following figures of Yugoslavian censuses show this.

According to preliminary results of the 1921 Yugoslavian census [Yugoslavia was called then "Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes"], as these can be found in [8], the ethnic composition of Yugoslavia at that time was:

Ethnic composition (in thousands) (percentages)
Serbs+Croats 8,946 74.4
Slovenes 1,024 8.5
Other Slavs 174 1.5
Germans 513 4.3
Hungarians 472 3.9
Albanians 441 3.7
Romanian 229 1.9
Italians 12 0.1
Others 201 1.7

The final results of this census, classified according to language spoken by these people where as follows:

(million) (percentages)
Yugoslavs 9,931 83.0
other Slavs 176 1.5
Germans 505 4.2
Hungarians 467 3.9
Albanians 439 3.7
Romanians 231 1.9
Turks (Albanians) 150 1.3
Italians 12 0.1
Other 69 0.6

According to their religion:

(million) (percentages)
Orthodox 5,593 46.7
Catholics 4,708 39.3
Muslims 1,345 11.2
Protestants 229 1.9
Jews 64 0.5
Greek-Catholics 40 0.4
Other 3 0.01

As one can see, in 1921 there were no "Macedonians" and no "Macedonian" language.

After the 1948 census the following figures were released. We have

(in thousands)
Serbs 6,547
Croats 3,784
Slovenes 1,415
"Macedonians" 809
Mavrovounians 425
(Montenegrians)
Muslims 808

It is interesting that a new nationality of "Macedonians" appeared in this census with a population of 809,000 while 27 years ago no such nationality existed. It is also interesting to note that according to this census no Albanians lived in Yugoslavia in 1948 while the 1921 census indicated the existence of 441,000 Albanians. This Albanian population is hidden under such terms (nationalities?) as "Macedonians", Mavrovounians, and Muslims. One can thus conclude that this 1948 census not only created new imaginary nationalities, like "Macedonians", but also erased existing ones. It seems creation and eradication of nationalities was a major hobby of the late Marshall Tito.

According to the religion of the people living in Yugoslavia one gets the following:

(percentages)
Orthodox 49.53%
Catholics 36.77%
Muslims 12.52%
Other Christians 1.14%
Jews 0.04%


Minorities (in thousands)
Albanians 750
Hungarians 496
Vlachs 102 (where did they come from? The Vlachs of
Macedonia that resided in Yugoslavia
after the Balkan Wars were under 30,000.)
Turks 98
Slovaks 83
Italians 79
Gypsies 72
Bulgarians 61
Russenoi* 37
Germans 55
Romanians 64
Jews 6.8
Greeks 1.8
Czechs 39

* This is the translation of this term into English from Greek.

It is surprising that the Greek minority in Yugoslavia is only 1,800. We simply note that during the Greek civil of 1944-1949 Yugoslavia fully supported the Greek Communists and around 28,000 children were abducted and sent to Yugoslavia. Most of these children never returned to their parents. It is believed that the majority of them remained in Yugoslavia.


Q22) What was the population distribution of Macedonia, the Republic of Skopje, and parts of Bulgaria in the years of Ottoman rule?
In 1912 Greeks and Bulgars living in the Ottoman Empire agreed on the number of members to the Ottoman Parliament each group would select. It was agreed that in each Vilaet (Regions of the Ottoman Empire) the number of Greek and Bulgarian representatives would be as follows.

Vilaet of Adrianoypoli Greeks 8 Bulgarians 1
" of Thessaloniki and
Monastirion Greeks 10 Bulgarians 5
" of Cossyphopedio Greeks 0 Bulgarians 2
(Kosovo)

No references to other Slavs, nor any protests of any kind, were filed after the elections. It can thus be assumed that the Greek: Bulgar as well as Greek: Slav proportion of the population in these vilaets was reflected in this arrangement.

Other (mainly of non-greek origin) sources from which one can draw conclusions on the population of various ottoman ruled areas are:

An Italian, Amadore Virgilli, in "La questiona roma rumeliota" (1907, page 107) gave the following statistics for the population of the two vilaets of Thessaloniki and Monastirion.

Thess:Greeks 362,000, Turks 423,500, Bulgars 198,000, Serbs 1400

Monast:Greeks 280,000, Turks 223,000, Bulgars 143,000, Serbs 6070

A German General [Von Der Golt in "Balkanwirren und ihre grunde" (1904)] who served in Turkey and organized the Turkish Army claimed the following statistics for the two vilaets:

Muslims 730,000, Greeks 580,000, Bulgars 266,000, Serbs 19,000, Jews 60,000

Therefore a statement that Macedonia was predominantly "Slavic" (with Slavs like the ones residing in nowadays Skopje) seems to be incorrect. Nowadays Macedonia in Greece included parts of the two vilaets of Thessaloniki and Monasterio. Parts of the Monasterio Vilaet today belong to Albania and Republic of Skopje. Parts of the Thessaloniki Vilaet to Rep. of Skopje and Bulgaria. There was a third Vilaet, that of Skopje extending north in today's southern Serbia.

There are various other statistics that more or less agree with these figures.




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